| Author | Message / Information |
| selina-SD | A choice of evils..... posted on: 11/2/2003 1:12:35 PM I am bound to come as the person behind my role for the moment. Seeing the outcry of the rumour regarding a woman roleplaying a man in gor, I am finding myself smack in the middle of a moral dilemna. In the past I have been noted as speaking out favorably towards a woman's right to roleplay a male character. After all, this is roleplay for some, right? If it hurts no one, no one is deceived, then there is no shame or wrong in it....right? I think the key here is "no one being deceived." And am finding myself as guilty as anyone else who knew of this person being a woman in a man's role. Because there is another woman roleplaying a man. I was bound by my solemn word, given one night to a friend pouring her heart out to me, nigh a year ago, to keep a secret, between friends. I figured, at the time, that if this person, and their slave, were in a commited relationship and did not embroil others in a deception to cross roleplay with real-time, then no harm no foul. I had the perspective that so long as the person played their chosen role as properly and close to the books as possible, there was no problem with it. Now I am on the flip side and seeing the whole situation from an entirely different light. How it feels to find out that someone you serve, and try to please, as a slave, isn't really a man, but a woman? Someone you might have opened up to yourself, even if only in roleplay. The feeling it leaves me with is sickening. Now I can better understand why some felt this was wrong to do. And so my views change, as experience grows. But it leaves me with a pit in my stomach, knowing that to do the "right thing" and stand up for the need of honesty regarding roles, means I may have to break the word I gave in friendship, and that sickens me about myself. It means i'm no better than they are, because I knew about it, and said nothing, because they were/are friends of mine, about whom I care deeply. Now I'm seeing that, no matter how close i might have been or might be with this other person, still doesn't give me the right to keep being a party to so deep a deception as this. The question that comes to my mind is this...there was a story about an abortion issue years and years ago, when I was in school, and we, as a class, were given two scenarios, two women, different circumstances, and the choice to decide if they should abort or not. If we chose one, we would have aborted Hitler. If we chose the other, we would have aborted da Vinci. Talk about a double edged sword huh? So, one I don't know very well at all, but is possibly a woman playing a man in gor. The other is very dear to me, as a person, but is known to be a woman playing a man in gor. Do we sacrifice both to expose one? Both are to be blunt, deceiving, albeit the circumstances are a bit different for each, that's just human nature. Either way, my character of selina will beg to be either killed or sold at auction when her Master is online again and she can speak with him. I can't in good conscience keep a secret that protects one doing the same thing as another being condemned for it. And I also can't roleplay with someone who expects me to serve as a gorean kajira when there is the possibility of it being a woman. You know who you are, so do several others that either you or your slave has told and asked to keep the secret. I care about both of you. I am begging the both of you, to let it be known and don't keep being afraid of being exposed. Please don't make me say it. Dallas. |
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Kyrtra
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A choice of evils.....
replied on: 11/2/2003 1:25:08 PM I am SO VERY Proud of you. Kyrtra~ |
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Lady_Sabina
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A choice of evils.....
replied on: 11/2/2003 1:37:08 PM It all goes back to being accountable for one's own self. Everyone makes mistakes, it is what we do to correct our mistakes that will be remembered. I wish you well. Sabby |
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Vel
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A choice of evils.....
replied on: 11/2/2003 1:48:15 PM OK enough for a minute please, I am out of the loop here for once, but is there proof on all this? I mean solid proof, not so and so told me or I think this or that? I am upset that this is spreading like a wildfire, yet I am only hearing bits and pieces. Stop now please, stop the hints, the accusing, and all the BS. If you have solid proof lay it out and make it known. I do not want to hear so and so told me this or that. GOSSIP is not proof....and god knows I am neutral in all this cause I do not know what the hell is going on. BUT I say this now, I could whisper something in someone ear in here, and by the time it got around, me saying I saw a FW hug a slave would be a full blown orgy.......I wish to see facts if you have them, otherwise please rethink all of this people....( deepening my voice) I do hope we can solve this...... smiles p.s. looks making sure I am a female,yep, I am..... |
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Lina.__
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A choice of evils.....
replied on: 11/2/2003 1:54:02 PM well said Vel, IF it's being done then let us see the proof, name names now or stop the noises... |
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Kyrtra
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A choice of evils.....
replied on: 11/2/2003 1:56:20 PM Vel, The proof I have is enough for me to come to this board and publicly state. I feel those of us involved have been honorable about allowing those who know that what they are doing is wrong. A chance for them to do the "right" thing and to appologise and move on. If they HAVE to be outed they will. Stand up those of you who know you are in the wrong. Do the right thing. Take responsibility for your actions. We all make mistakes. How we make them right is what speaks the loudest. I wish You well. Kyrtra Valkryion. |
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Vel
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A choice of evils.....
replied on: 11/2/2003 1:59:43 PM Krytra as much respect as I have for you that is not proof my friend. I have no clue who what you are talking about, nor do I wish to. This is looking like a witch hunt and halloween is over. So again I say if you have proof let Gor see, if not then let's end this witch or warlock hunt ( smiles ) |
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Lina.__
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A choice of evils.....
replied on: 11/2/2003 2:01:32 PM Kyrtra I understand you're wanting to allow someone to out themselves and retain whatever shred of dignity they may have. And I truely do hope that proof is shown if they do not do so in a reasonable time... |
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Lady_Sabina
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A choice of evils.....
replied on: 11/2/2003 2:01:40 PM As mature, professional adults, as Goreans who shout honour so loudly, I would hope those directly involved would have the courage, the integrity and the moral fiber to admit what they are doing. Sabina |
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Questa
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A choice of evils.....
replied on: 11/2/2003 2:07:31 PM I have seen no proof of any female roleplaying a man, but there surely are a lot of people saying that others are. People come to these boards with proof of every little slight and indiginty, but not one person has shown concrete proof that anyone is doing the gender bending thing. I am totally unconcerned with any of these other people, like the one of whom the slave speaks. Only one person matters to me in this. Show me the proof. Questa |
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Vivienne__
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A choice of evils.....
replied on: 11/2/2003 2:41:41 PM This was discussed when WulfMoon left Halsoft. Jubei and the men in AR had a large discussion more then one night. I had no idea why it came up then, but to my suspicions it was do to someone taking on a gender changing role. It must have sowed its seed. Now more then a year later we see it in its existence. I spoke out against it and chose to leave AR because of it. for the reasons spoken of on this and other posts. I do not see it as ethical no matter how you look at it period. The leaders of AR didn't think the same as I did. I think the problem is that was a homestone issue, but as we can see it spread to other cities and the eventual leadership role as well. I think this is great now that we have a possible second person admitting the same issue. I don't think anything like this would be accepted on Gor the planet. I don't believe it is accepted on earth. I know it isn't accepted in my household or homestone. Where does that leave us? This isn't someone's playground to do as he/she wishes. You all are part of a community weather you wish to believe it or not. It isn't the world according to such and such... Show your fellow goreans a little respect. |
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Lina.__
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A choice of evils.....
replied on: 11/2/2003 2:52:49 PM what would be done with a woman dressed as a man on Gor? I think that's all that needs be said. I still await names and proof..... |
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x_Dream_Weaver_x
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A choice of evils.....
replied on: 11/2/2003 2:54:04 PM selina, What an interesting post. I had a long conversation recently with someone in EXACTLY the same position as the one you describe. I will tell you what I told that person. Why would a friend, a REAL friend, put you in such an awkward position? Why would a REAL friend EXPLOIT your loyalty and good nature to do something blatantly dishonest? The fact that they asked for your confidence is enough to establish thet they knew of their own wrong-doings. Perhaps these people can live with their decisions - justifying their poor behaviour by saying "This is role-play, it's ONLY make-believe people!" ... but we all know that unlike other role-play environments Gor's sexual nature and the power that can be transferred from person to person here makes it FAR more than simple role-play for almost everyone. To tell a friend that they are about to do something dishonest or unpalatable is all about the transferral of guilt. A friend should not do that to you. The person who is being mentioned today as a gender bender is someone once highly respected in VPGor. She and her partner were instrumental in the development of many of the fundamentals of acceptable behaviour. Irrefutable proof of course, will not be forthcoming unless this person stands up and tells all of Gor what many already know and what a good deal more suspect. For the record, I am satisfied in my own mind that this person IS gender bending. Perhaps it was my 'speech' last night at that debacle called the Gorean Men's Forum that has triggered all this talk today. Enough decent and fair people have watched recent events and made up their own minds. I have sat back and allowed others to draw conclusions that I arrived at several months ago (as at least one contributor to this post well knows) Not a single one of us can prove anything to the level of 100% satisfaction, and THAT is precisely the fact that this interloper is relying on. They too will rely on the loyalty of their 'friends' to blow smoke screens and issue support. To those friends - I only hope that the friendship of such people is worthwhile. If this person's acts were designed for the betterment of Gor - are they actually saying that they believe that this is the ONLY way that they could have come to Gor and help improve it?? By lying and deceiving people who common sense suggests would not take too kindly to realising that they have been duped?? How can such a tactic ever have been thought to be a wise one?? I can't answer for people who make such mystifying decisions. I can give them the benefit of the doubt and say that their motives were good ones, but good motives with bad conclusions are, at the end of the day, still a folly. Lets hope that the integrity that the people directly involved here have so often espoused is one of the genuine things about them, and that they do VPGor the service of at least standing up, admitting their actions, and defending their motives - Perhaps, articulate and knowledgeable as they are, they can actually change my attitude to gender bending in VPGor - perhaps it will be the start of a new era where anyone can play any role for any amount of time. I doubt it, but I look forward to seeing some redeeming factors from this whole issue. Dream Weaver. |
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Vivienne__
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A choice of evils.....
replied on: 11/2/2003 3:41:23 PM nudges~~ |
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Karman
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A choice of evils.....
replied on: 11/2/2003 4:05:54 PM selina I can say this to you first hand as Kali I had an online brother- who admitted to all of gor he was my realtime Brother I didnt correct him--in fact I egged it on with what I did do with my realtime brothers- I did it for innocent reasons to make a certain person feel special and wanted HIM) my online brother well it all went to hell in a hand-basket the (lie) wasn't worth it, it cost me what trust and honor I did have- and people used it as a ploy to disrespect me/ruin me sad enough- it worked I lost alot with that lie~ and to ask others to lie for you is uncalled for Like DW said what kind of friend is that I learned a lesson- there is peace in the truth, it maybe something you don't wish to admit but the truth will always always set you free For once you have it, noone can control you or hold you to words or bind you with lies- Take My Learned Advice nomatter how hard how bad Tell the Truth always and you will come out a better person for it Karmy |
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Cardinal
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A choice of evils.....
replied on: 11/2/2003 5:08:56 PM ok.. i know this is a serious thread to most of you.. but one question still remains heavy on my mind... wether or not He/She is a She/He in real... is His/Her own business.. He/She isnt harming anyone in Vp by playing the role of a Master as long as lies are not included in the roleplay...Since when does the sex of a person in Real, make the person they are in Vp... perhaps the person has an actual reason for playing the "he" online.. and is a "she" in real...and for anyone to judge someone because of their sex.. or sexual preferances... to me.. this person isnt hurting anyone ..as i stated..as long as no one is being lied to and / or hurt in the process.. I know who this thread pertains to.. and Yes i know this person is playing the role of a "Master" in Vp.. but in real is a "SHe"... but the question still remains.. who are any one you to judge Him'Her for what He/She is doing ..or what they role play as... or what they do in Vp..it doesnt make the person who they are in real.. they are still human.. they still have feelings.. they still have a heart.. and they still are able to be hurt.. even with the rude comments made by some here on the board.. i think people need to re-evaluate themself before they ever consider judging this person for what He'She has done. said, acted, or what he'she really is in Vp... the sex of a person doesnt make that person who they really are... Card'Sin ~*~ Life is what You make of it.. either better what you dun like.. or stop your bitchin about what you have let it become~*~ |